Tuesday, May 19, 2009

"Respecting" Other Religions

Today’s OneNewsNow.com Daily News Brief email had the subject line “Should Christians ‘respect’ other religions?” Immediately I became suspicious and so within the email I found the link to this column by R. Albert Mohler, Jr. The column deals with the Pope’s recent visit to the Jordan and his comments that he respects the religion of Islam.

There is a lot that is going on in this piece that I’m going to comment on, so I think I will take a paragraph or two at a time, copy them and then provide my thought.
There are so many different angles to this situation. First, we have the spectacle of a Pope being received as a head of state. This is wrong on so many counts. Second, we have the Pope speaking in diplomatic jargon, rather than in plain and direct speech. Third, we have the Pope speaking of "respect" without any clear understanding of what this really means. Does the Pope believe that Muslims can be saved through the teachings of Islam?
First: Technically the Pope is a head of state. The Vatican is considered an independent nation.
Second: As a head of state, and one that is walking on eggshells thanks to previous comments, I’m not surprised to see him use diplomatic speak.
Third: That is a good question that will get addressed in more detail below.
Actually, he probably does -- at least within the context of a salvific inclusivism. The Roman Catholic Church officially teaches that Muslims are "included in the plan of salvation" by virtue of their claim to "hold the faith of Abraham."

In the words of Lumen Gentium, one of the major documents adopted at Vatican II: "But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind."

The same language is basic to the current official catechism of the church as well. Within the context of the document, this language clearly implies that Muslims are within the scope of God's salvation. While the Roman Catholic Church teaches that Islam is both erroneous and incomplete, it also holds that sincere Muslims can be included in Christ's salvation through their faithfulness to monotheism and Islam.

Thus, when the Catholic Pope speaks of "respecting" Islam, he can do so in a way that evangelical Christians cannot. Within the context of official Catholic teaching, the Pope can create a fusion of diplomacy and doctrine.
This is something that I did not know, but I am encouraged by the somewhat holistic outlook adopted by the Church in this case.
While evangelical Christians face a different context to this question, the urgency is the same. We are not playing a diplomatic role as head of state, but we are called to be ambassadors for Christ and His Gospel.
It really bugs me when people claim to be speaking for Christ.

In this light, any belief system that pulls persons away from the Gospel of Christ, denies and subverts Christian truth, and blinds sinners from seeing Christ as the only hope of salvation is, by biblical definition, a way that leads to destruction. Islam, like every other rival to the Christian gospel, takes persons captive and is devoid of genuine hope for salvation.

Thus, evangelical Christians may respect the sincerity with which Muslims hold their beliefs, but we cannot respect the beliefs themselves. We can respect Muslim people for their contributions to human welfare, scholarship, and culture. We can respect the brilliance of Muslim scholarship in the medieval era and the wonders of Islamic art and architecture. But we cannot respect a belief system that denies the truth of the gospel, insists that Jesus was not God's Son, and takes millions of souls captive.
I find this to be very disturbing. While I’m glad that R. Mohler can see and respect many aspects of Muslim culture, history, and society, but to completely discount their religion just smacks of arrogance to me. Based on what he has written, this man completely lacks humility.
The papal visit to Jordan points directly to the problem of the papacy itself and to the confusion of Roman Catholic theology on this very point. To understand Islam is to know that we cannot identify Muslims as those who "along with us adore the one and merciful God." To deny the Trinity is to worship another God.
If not believing in the Trinity is to “worship another God” then what about the Jews? All Christians (or at least all that I have ever come into contact with or read) believe that they worship the same God that the Jews worship, but they (the Jews) do not believe in the Trinity. So by Mohler’s definition, Jews also worship a different God. But wait…Jesus was a Jew, so how does Mohler rationalize his contradictory and self-serving definition?
Respect is a problematic category. In the end, Christians must show respect for Muslims by sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the spirit of love and truth. We are called to love and respect Muslims, not Islam.
So the only way to respect them is to preach to them? How arrogant is that? I’m sorry if I’m offending anyone but this is folly. No one religion is truer than any other. They all have their pluses and their minuses but none of them own the truth. I understand that the point of religion is the faith part, but faith that lacks the intellectual humility to know that admit that one could be wrong is hollow in my eyes and misses the great power of the divine mystery.

17 comments:

Red S Tater said...

"No one religion is truer than any other."

Really, ...are you absolutely certain of that dave?
How so?

If so, what are you basing the absolute certainty that not one religion is any truer than any other religion?
Surely they cannot be the only thing on this planet that is exactly the same as the other one... one must be truer than another in fact by the laws of nature.

If you don't believe any religion is "true", then are you actually an atheist?

And since you would consider any religion that recognizes the same God you believe-in "truer" than others... aren't you saying there is no God?

Honestly... I'm not trying to insult you here... just get a handle on that statement.
-red

Scott said...

If you are bugged by people speaking for Christ, please pick up a Bible and turn to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John where Christ speaks for himself.

Otter said...

Scott, I think when Dave is talking about being irritated by people claim to be speaking for Christ he is talking about those people who claim to be Christian and expect the masses to believe they are speaking as if they are Christ themselves. Or those in the clergy who claim to represent Jesus on earth but themselves are complete jerks.

I could be wrong but I think that is what Dave is talking about. Correct me if I am wrong Dave.

And Dave, I think I missed commenting on something you said toward the end of this post and I think I need to address:

"In the end, Christians must show respect...by sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ...."

"So the only way to respect them is to preach to them?"

I don't necessarily think that preaching to someone is the only (or the best) way to share the Gospel of Jesus. I think a better way would be to share the Gospel by your actions and not necessarily your words.

Dave said...

Red -- Those are all great questions. I will try to go over each one at a time.

Q: "Really, ...are you absolutely certain of that dave? How so?"

A: I have based this belief on my research and my own personal faith. I'm as certain as I can be on this, but I'm also humble enough to know that I could be wrong. Let me use an analogy here to help explain (it's gonna be a stretch I'm sure, but work with me here) -- Often I have customers ask me "Are you guaranteeing me that this will fix my problem?" My answer is always "Yes most likely it is, baring any unforeseen circumstances." At that point the ones who are really pissed off take me to task on the answer and my response is "Hey I might get hit by a bus when I leave work today and die. Nothing is for sure, but this is my professional opinion." In many ways that is how I look at faith.


Q: "If so, what are you basing the absolute certainty that not one religion is any truer than any other religion? Surely they cannot be the only thing on this planet that is exactly the same as the other one... one must be truer than another in fact by the laws of nature."

A: At their core, religions are metaphors and myths designed to help humanity understand the world around them; to try and answer the questions of life, death, and the afterlife; and to teach the norms and mores of the society. From that stand point, none of them are based on the laws of nature. I also base this opinion on the fact that the core moral values and principles of nearly all of the world's religions are the same and can be broken down into three simple categories/rules/teachings:
1) don't murder
2) don't screw people over
3) live your life in service of others
There you have, in a nutshell, the teaching of Jesus, Moses, the Buddha, Confucius, and Laozi rolled up into one. The differences are in the minutia's of the faiths, but as Shakespeare once said "a rose by any other name, would smell as sweet."


Q: "If you don't believe any religion is "true", then are you actually an atheist?"

A: Not at all (not that there's anything wrong with it). I have a firm belief in God, but I'm not a religious person as much as I'm a spiritual person. And there is a pretty big distinction between those two.


Q: "And since you would consider any religion that recognizes the same God you believe-in "truer" than others... aren't you saying there is no God?"

A: No. Like I said before, I 100% believe in God, I just don't think any of the religions have it right. The problem with religions is that they organize faith and spirituality and once that happens the purpose of the organization becomes the organization itself and not the faith. That's my jaded answer. My philosophical answer is that religion is humanity's way of interpreting the divine and because we, as humans, have a limited understanding of divinity we create different images and stories to fill that roll.

"Honestly... I'm not trying to insult you here... just get a handle on that statement."

I didn't take any insult to your questions. They were stern but respectful at the same time.


Scott -- See Otter's first paragraph below.


Otter said: "I don't necessarily think that preaching to someone is the only (or the best) way to share the Gospel of Jesus. I think a better way would be to share the Gospel by your actions and not necessarily your words."

AMEN! You know that and that's what makes you a great Christian, IMHO, but people like Mohler, based on this column, don't. They are the kind of people that give Christians a bad name.

Red S Tater said...

Okay... let me get this straight... you believe in "God", but everyone else... all the religious scholars and prophets "got it wrong"... except for you... and you admit you could be wrong too... but that doesn't make them right either.

Wow. If you are starting a new church or religion... that's not exactly the strongest position from which to convince others.

Speaking from a customer service and sales prospective that is...

Dave said...

Not to parse words here Red, but I never said “got it wrong”. If you are going to correctly quote me, I said “I just don't think any of the religions have it right.” Also I went on to qualify said statement stating that that is my jaded answer and then I went on to explain my philosophical answer. I find it interesting that of everything that I wrote you picked this one little part to comment on and even in doing so you misquoted me and took my words out of context. Why is that?

I think the problem that we’re having in this discussion Red is that you and I look at things completely differently, thus our points of view on this topic do not mesh well. You seem to be a bit of a literalist, meaning that you take the scripture literally (if I am wrong then I apologize, I’m basing this assumption off of things that you have written in the past). I take scripture, and by scripture I mean all scripture of all religions, as a combination of metaphor and mythology. Yes there are historically accurate portions of many different scriptures but that does not make them 100% literally accurate.

“Wow. If you are starting a new church or religion... that's not exactly the strongest position from which to convince others. Speaking from a customer service and sales prospective that is...”

I am neither a salesman nor a prophet Red. You asked for my opinions and I gave them to you.

Red S Tater said...

lol...
"Not to parse words here Red, but I never said “got it wrong”. If you are going to correctly quote me, I said “I just don't think any of the religions have it right.”

Without parsing... only the left can think something "isn't right" but yet "not wrong"... everything is in that gray area...

Dave said...

I thought you’d agreed to stop that really annoying habit of commenting on something that I personally wrote by somehow making it a condemnation of “the left.” It’s this shit that really pisses me off Red.

And again I called you out on twisting my words (albeit in a very nitpicky manner) and asked why you cannot comment on more than just a little one liner that you thinks makes me look stupid and what do you do? You make an asinine comment about “the left” that has NOTHING TO DO WITH ME OR THIS CONVERSATION!!!!!!!

I have taken time to answer your questions and you come back with taunts and jeers. Are you this big of a jerk to your friends in real life, or just your online ones?

Dave said...

Are you ever going to comment on something worthwhile Red, or am I just wasting my time here with you? I’d really like to have a discussion with you but not if you are going to act like a drunk at a comedy club who is heckling the comedian.

Otter said...

what i find amusing about this observation is that Red has this impression that the left is full of stupid people and thinks that there are no stupid people on the right.

i have know plenty of "rightys" that are complete freaking morons.

Dave said...

Thank you Steve!!!

Dave said...

To be fair Red, “I just don't think any of the religions have it right” was probably a poor choice of words. I can see how someone would have a knee-jerk reaction and misinterpret them. I’ll do try to do better next time.

That having been said, you did fall back on you standard tactics instead of having an honest conversation with me. That still bothers me and makes me feel like discussing anything with you is a waste of time. I hope to get some actual reactions from you on this topic.

Red S Tater said...

Dave... the only tactic I am resorting back to is to hold you to your statements... relax.

First you said.. "no religion is truer than the other", then you said "none of the religions have got it right"... yet you said that doesn't mean any of them are wrong....

I can give you other examples of where "the left" views things as gray areas above their pay grade which are to conservatives very straight forward concepts... if you like... so I think my comment was appropriate, considering.

Now... as far as standing on the sidelines and throwing rocks... if you truly believe that no religion has "got it right", but you offer no alternative... then what is that?

Steve... of course there are stupid people in every quarter... let's see now who is a "stupid" conservative... John McCain?
He believe that by simply picking an actual conservative as Veep that real conservatives would forget he campaigned with Joe Lieberman and was against the fence and enforcing immigration laws and against the Bush tax cuts.... but he was wrong.

Republicans were stupid for thinking that by moving to the middle with McCain they could out Democrat the Democrats... now that was beyond stupid.. retarded is more like it.

There... still think I only think the left is stupid?

Dave said...

How would you feel Red if every time you said something, I responded by making it a general condemnation of the “right?” I wouldn’t do that because 1) I have more respect for you than that (even though that respect is rarely reciprocated) and 2) I know that you speak only for you and not for the “right” (except when you are copying and pasting entire articles/posts by other people, then you are just borrowing their work because you thought it was worth reading and wanted to share it).

As far as tactics are concerned, whether you realize it or not you are using a debate tactic. That is fine and dandy but I don’t see our conversations as a debate. I see them as a discussion amongst friends, so when you turn it into a debate (generally for no good reason) it gets irritating and old.

Red said: “Now... as far as standing on the sidelines and throwing rocks... if you truly believe that no religion has "got it right", but you offer no alternative... then what is that?”

Obviously you missed the part where I said that I could have worded things a bit better. Good job at selective reading there Red. My statement that no religion is truer than the other though is very accurate IMO.

Because you see things in such a black and white way Red I doubt that you will ever understand the points that I am trying to make. As I said before I’m no prophet or saleman and I’m not trying to start any new religion. What I am trying to do is point out the beauty and wisdom in all religions. There is a world of difference there. At this point though I feel that this discussion has become pointless because there is an obvious communication breakdown; you are either not understanding what I’m saying or I’m not doing a very good job communicating my points.

Let me try this one last time.
1. No religion is truer than any other.
2. Nearly all religions teach the same basic moral principles.
3. The only “true” religion is that one that is true for you. Whatever religion helps you find your path through life, then that is the one that will work and lead you to salvation.
4. The road to salvation is paved by our actions and not the name that we give to God.

I hope that clarifies things. If you have further questions, please do ask but any snide remarks or general condemnations of the “left” based on my words will go ignored. These are MY THOUGHTS, MY VIEWS, and MY OPINIONS and no one elses. Don’t insult me by trying to use me as a spokesman for the “left” (whatever that means anyway).

Red said: “There... still think I only think the left is stupid?”

Yes because the only thing you listed in your defense was Republicans who you think either act like the “left” of lean too far to the left, thus to you they are part of the ever evil “left” and are stupid.

Otter said...

Well actually Red, I am not just talking about conservatives that are in the spotlight. I am talking about regular joes that call themselves conservative as well.

But there are plenty of high profile Republicans that I think are dumber than a stump.

Red S Tater said...

1- wrong... you have no proof or evidence of this and your case for this assumes there is no right and wrong.
2- wrong... each religion teaches that they are right and others are wrong and each teaches a completely different way to get to heaven or Hell.
3- wrong... the only "true" religion is the one that is true, the others are not.
4- wrong... we are all undeserving of heaven we only can get there by the grace of God...as a gift... we cannot buy it neither with deeds or money.

Other than that, I guess we agree.

Dave said...

That is your opinion Red based on the doctrine of your chosen religion. I respect that. It is glaringly obvious that you however do not respect, let alone understand, my opinion or beliefs. Because of that lack of respect and courtesy this conversation is going nowhere.

There is one thing that you have repeated though that bothers me that I’d like to address now. You seem to be under the impression that I do not believe in right and wrong. This is an inaccurate and incorrect conclusion on your part Red. I completely believe in right and wrong. Just because I do not subscribe to your specific religious doctrines and dogmas does not mean that I don’t believe in right and wrong. Your religion (or political party/philosophy for that matter) does not hold a monopoly on ethics and morals and your assumption that it does is not only arrogant but it is ignorant as well. Check your facts and assumptions before you go off half-cocked and try to tell me what I do and do not believe in. It would be one thing if you asked a question because something that I wrote made you draw that conclusion but you didn’t. You asked a series of fairly incoherent and very poorly written questions that honestly made no sense and then made a series of assumptions that fit your preconceived notions of the “left” and dumped them on me. This is not only disrespectful to me personally but it is also intellectually dishonest. As always though you are probably going to blow off this criticism as me either being too sensitive or an idiot liberal, without actually looking at yourself and realizing the complete and total lack of respect and courtesy that you display in our conversations.

As to your point # 2: What actual research have you done into other religions to draw this conclusion? It sounds to me like church propaganda honestly. No offense.