Two posts over at The Otter Limits and faith and works (found here and here) got me thinking about my own take of faith versus deeds. As a young child, I never understood the concept of the loving and caring God that I learned about in church, sending people to hell for simply holding another faith or no faith at all, when said people live lives of high moral character, standards, and behaviors. It never made sense to me and seemed amazing illogical. From there the seeds of my current view on salvation were sown.
To me, deeds are far more important to salvation than faith. I think that it is what we do in this life that will determine where we end up in the afterlife, much more than the name that we give to God. This point of view is very karmic and eastern in nature but then again karma is something that I believe in. I cannot fathom God damning a good person to hell simply because he/she was a Buddhist, agnostic, pagan, or atheist (just to name a few). To me it defies logic and reason. How could God be that selfish and insecure? It seems more like a scare tactic than a spiritual one.
Since I am one that believes that God has been interpreted by humanity in countless ways, I truly see this invention of faith or damnation as a human one and not a holy one. What matters more than anything else is how we treat one another and how we raise our children. That is the best way to show God our love and appreciation by taking care of each other and the world around us, not by spending all of our time and energy on whether or not one name for God is better than another.
7 comments:
"To me, deeds are far more important to salvation than faith."
May I respectfully disagree?
"For it is by Grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no man can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16
If deeds get us to heaven... then none of us are going since we all fall short, not one person is deserving of heaven, of eternal life... it is a gift that can only be received or rejected.
That is what I believe... I don't believe heaven is for sale at any price.
Yes you may, and thank you for asking. :o)
I never said, nor implied, that heaven was for sale. I understand where you are coming from with your position and I respect that. I grew up in Christianity and have been taught those same lessons in church, but they just never sat right with me. This probably harkens back to my relatively eastern way of looking at things. The older I get, the more and more karma makes sense to me. So that is the lense through which I look at salvation.
As I mentioned somewhere else (I think in a comment on my post or something, can't remember - long weekend - LOL!)...
The idea of my post was not that deeds alone get you to heaven. I don't believe that either. I think it is faith that gets you where you are going.
But I do not think that faith is merely believing in something. As it says in the Bible, demons believe too. I think true faith is belief and obedience and I think that via true faith, you are compelled to act on that. Those actions usually end up being what a person would call deeds.
Does that make any sense?
I think that is what I was trying to get across in those 2 posts. But now I can't honestly remember, they were written so long ago.
"In Matthew 5:16 the bible says ‘let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in Heaven.’"... so deeds certainly matter.
But I would argue that deeds alone cannot be the measure... if so, what is the balance point between good deeds vs sins?
How many souls lost due to falling one good deed short?
This is why I believe that logically it would follow that as the bible says no amount of good deeds can do it because it is not earned but a gift.
If good deeds were the soul err sole (sorry) criteria then Jesus lived and died for nothing but in addition in effect heaven is for sale... or at least for "trade".
I respect the idea and certainly agree that deeds matter in conjunction with faith.
Red said: “If good deeds were the soul err sole (sorry) criteria then Jesus lived and died for nothing but in addition in effect heaven is for sale... or at least for "trade".”
I disagree. The example that Jesus set alone was worth his living and dying. Meaning that he brought a message that was extremely important to the world and that is what mattered more than his death and resurrection. Remember, this is the opinion of a non-Christian so please take that into consideration before ripping me a new one. :o)
I heard someone on Coast to Coast AM one night a few years ago talking about the idea of the great Messiahs. His theory was that there have already been two Messiahs sent to Earth by God: Jesus and the Buddha. This was a theory that I’d never heard specifically but it is one that I really liked and thought meshed well with my own personal spirituality (I did a post on it at the time too). Both Jesus and the Buddha taught that basically we need to be good to one another. They also were the spiritual reformers of their time and region. The theory was that basically God sent them to Earth to help put humanity back on the right path. I thought it was a great theory.
Red said: “This is why I believe that logically it would follow that as the bible says no amount of good deeds can do it because it is not earned but a gift.”
That is a logical conclusion for a Christian (no offense meant by that by the way, it was just the only way I could think to word the sentence). But how logical is religion really? Sure I stated that my logic had a problem with what religion was teaching me and thus logic and reason sent me along a different path, but how logical is religion really? Isn’t all just a matter of faith more than logic and reason?
Otter said: “The idea of my post was not that deeds alone get you to heaven. I don't believe that either. I think it is faith that gets you where you are going.”
I know. Your posts just go me thinking and writing.
Okay.. I'm with ya.... but you said "The example that Jesus set alone was worth his living and dying. Meaning that he brought a message that was extremely important to the world and that is what mattered more than his death and resurrection."
And what was the message that Jesus brought to the world?
Love thy neighbor as thyself. In other words…be good to each other.
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